Dr. Smiti Nathan

Transcript

Smiti: Welcome to Curiosity Meets the Past — a podcast for curious minds who love learning about the past. I’m Dr. Smiti Nathan, and I’m an archaeologist, and your host.

In this episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Taylor Zaneri, an archaeologist who investigates medieval cities in Italy using geospatial methods to explore how people in the past navigated urban life.

Now, Taylor and I have known each other since our doctoral program. While it’s always been clear that she’s been interested in maps, she’s also had a longstanding interest in public health, especially in historical context. In our conversation, she walks us through what maps can reveal about public health and the medieval city of Bologna, Italy.

She shares some surprising insights, like which areas city officials were preoccupied with keeping clean and who got cited when things went wrong, and we even get a glimpse of how the archeological record can offer up some unexpected evidence of what was happening on the ground. Our conversation is a fascinating look into how spatial data, historical texts, and archeology can come together to tell a very human story.

She starts us off by setting the scene and sharing what you might have seen if you travel to Medieval Bologna in the 13th century CE.

Taylor: Bologna during this time underwent population growth and expansion like a lot of Medieval European cities did. So scholars have estimated that there were between 50 to 65,000 people living in the city, if not more.

It had a university, it’s one of the oldest universities in the world actually. So they had a very vibrant student population where they taught medicine and law. Um, in terms of artisanal activities, they would’ve had people involved in textiles, metal working butchers. So all different kinds of guilds actually that, that we know from the medieval documents.

So in terms of the, the public health aspect, bologna had a system of canals that were used for both. Sort of the crafts of the artisans as well as waste disposal purposes. One of the interesting things that related to sort of city life is that I think that all urban cities today, right, have public health challenges.

And we know that because if you’ve lived in a city, you’ve encountered trash or some kind of thing that you might feel is is a public health problem. And so that was certainly the case in Bologna. But I think like today, different parts of the city will have different sort of hygienic problems. And that was something that I definitely saw in the city of Bologna.

I looked at the health regulations and when I was reading these regulations, really just to get a sense of what these regulations were, right? So what they were trying to regulate, what kinds of matter, for example, right? Or, and. Which could include waste, it could include water, it could include animals.

One of the things that I realized was how spatially specific these regulations were, how they described specific places, what you were allowed to do or you weren’t allowed to do in these locations. And so that’s when I came up with the idea of mapping these regulations in order to understand how from a government perspective, public health was viewed.

Smiti: Got it. Thank you so much for that. And it just makes me think when it comes to public health in medieval cities in general, what do you think maps help us understand that might otherwise go unnoticed?

Taylor: So one of the things that we found out through mapping is that there were very specific areas that they focused on keeping these areas clean. So for example, the city center where you had all of the kind of civic buildings as well as a very large market, they had a lot of restrictions around this specific area. So there was a market where food would’ve been sold, for example, and also probably household items. And so they were very concerned about keeping that area clean, especially from, well, human waste and animal waste, we would’ve had butchers there. So they were very concerned about animals which had been butchered or the flesh and the blood of these animals not being in the civic center, so that they were very specific about where you could do certain activities.

For example, activities that involve burning. So they tried to keep those activities again away from the city center where more of the commercial activities would’ve been, and also away from where a lot of the people would’ve been. Number one, it was a fire hazard. And number two, obviously it’s gonna produce smoke and other sort of noxious air and chemicals.

So anything with metallurgy and or any kind of burning was also very heavily restricted and you wouldn’t necessarily understand that unless you read the regulations. Then you went and actually found the locations, and this is actually something else that’s really surprising as well, is that you can find these locations.

We can find these locations almost like 700, 800 years later. It was not something that I was setting out to do. I just was reading a number of these regulations and then I realized, oh, I actually understand that where they’re talking about within the city. Wow, that’s pretty amazing to get that granular detail.

And speaking of details, when you started mapping public health infrastructure in medieval bologna, were there certain patterns or spatial clues that specifically stood out? Yeah, so one thing that I found interesting is, is the way that they described space, they wouldn’t have had street names necessarily as we have street names today.

Some of them, they did the major roads, they would, they would use the word street, but not always. It would sort of use the word borgo or like area or zone. But a lot of those ended up becoming street names. So you could look at sort of the medieval names that they used and then kind of use that to find the, the modern street.

And then the other thing that they used, they used prominent buildings, right? So a prominent church, for example, you, they would say, you know, next to this church, you can’t do this, or you can do this. Or they would use the houses of very prominent individuals. They would sometimes say from this per person’s a’s house to person’s B’s house.

And so you think that, okay, the people who are writing these things understand where these individuals live, if they’re using their houses as as spatial markers. It’s not always possible to find all of these markers. So sometimes they’re referring to a person who I can’t find in the, in the historical record, there were a few that I was a little bit frustrated, and that’s because sometimes the urban layout has changed, right?

So there are certain times that, that the, the streets have changed. And so I can say, I know it’s in the southeast part of the city, but I can’t quite figure out exactly where it is so that that does happen. But I mean, it just mostly surprised me how I was able to find these locations and how hundreds of years later that I could understand where they’re talking about.

Smiti: That’s super fascinating. So when it comes to zoning and regulations, can you walk us through an example of how this was executed in Medieval Bologna?

Taylor: Yeah, so one of the things that I noticed when I was reading these regulations is that. There were different types of regulations for different zones, and this had to do with what kind of matter they were trying to regulate.

So for example, they were really concerned about the supply of water, rightfully so. And so, there were a lot of restrictions around wells, what you could do within a certain radius of a well. So you would prohibit to have any kind of, any activity involving any kind of blood or flesh or. Stung or anything like that within a well or any sort of chemical activity.

And I think that obviously makes sense and that’s something that maybe you wouldn’t necessarily know unless you really kind of looked into the, into the details of this. So this was the research that was done with the regulations. And then another paper that I, I was involved in was with the, the director of the project that I worked on, Professor Guy Geltner.

So he collected a data set basically of the enforcement of these regulations. And so that is, was really interesting then to look at those two data sets to, on the one hand, look at the regulations themselves and then look at their enforcement and see what kind of areas officials focused on or their attention was drawn to, because they could go around and record things or you could also report, you know, if your neighbor, for example, left something that was noxious and, and so yeah, it really gives you this kind of really granular insight into the public health aspect of, of life.

Smiti: Got it. And speaking of data sets, the historical textual records, paint one picture and I’m curious what GIS and mapping allows in terms of extra insight that you might not get if you had just looked at the textual evidence.

Taylor: If you’ve just looked at the text, you would understand that they cared about public health ’cause there’s all of these records to attest to that. But when you map them, you can actually see where the areas that they were concerned about, that they focused on more.

Or where certain activities were taking place. So for example, we do in the data set that Professor Geltner collected and then I analyzed, we actually saw a lot of women were being cited during their sort of merchant or selling activities in the city center sometimes because they were just not for public health reasons necessary, but because they were blocking passageway or stuff like that.

And that was really interesting because. We wouldn’t necessarily have known that there were women and these activities were taking place here if we hadn’t actually mapped the locations where they were cited by officials. So that to me was something that was, that was really interesting.

Smiti: That’s super interesting in terms of how mapping can help us, especially in corroborating or adding say to the historical and textual record. I’m curious, how does the archeological record factor into this?

Taylor: Fundamental to the medieval economy was water. It powered mills. It was used for different crafts. And so bologna has these, these canals, these water sources. They’re filled by rivers, but they come in from the south of the city and they flow north.

These rivers feed into the whole canal system that goes through the city. And so one thing that I found out when I mapped these regulations is that officials really understood that because the water was coming in from the south of the city, that if there was any sort of blockage or disruption in the water flow in the south, it was going to impact the flow of water.

In the entire city because the water’s entering the city from the south and going north. So there was an archaeological excavation at the southern part of the city where one of the water courses entered, and that we know from textual records that it was moved to another location. And we can tell archaeologically that it was kind of filled in in the 11th, 12th century, and the course was moved, but it appears.

That this sort of empty watercourse now because it was diverted to a different location, still existed in the city because we have historical records that tell us that there were waste disposal problems. And you can imagine if you have sort of this ditch or this watercourse that was now empty because active water is not flowing through it and people are throwing garbage in it, then it now becomes like a public health issue because water is not moving that waste out of the way.

And so for me that was really exciting because then I could directly connect what the, the enforcement of these health regulations, right? So officials who are recording that there’s this problem and the archeological record, which indeed has shown that this course was moved and that it was, you know, being diverted into another location.

Smiti: Wow. That’s super interesting.

Taylor: Yeah, I was, I was really excited about that. I mean, another interesting thing too is who officials assigned responsibility? Sometimes they would assign responsibility to a single individual. Sometimes they would assign responsibility to multiple individuals, or sometimes they would basically cite a whole.

In the case of this sort of empty watercourse that was being used still for refuge disposal, they basically cited three church parishes. The church was kind of a unit of administration in medieval city, so you were known by what church you sort of lived in and you went to. And so they basically cited three communities of three churches, like who lived along this watercourse and said like, this is a problem collectively, right? There are many people who are living, you know, along this and that are using this for, for waste disposal.

Smiti: I wouldn’t have thought about that, but that is fascinating. Awesome. So I was wondering if you could walk us through some of your maps.

Taylor: So this is a map showing all of the different kinds of regulations that I identified. When I was reading these, these, they’re called statutes, so the sort of regulations of the city. And so what I did is I mapped the streets or it’s sort of the zone that the regulation was a applying to. And then, um, what kind it was. So I sort of developed five different categories in terms of regulation, and I’ll explain sort of the significance of each of them in terms of public health.

The first type I have is road regulations, so that would have to do with the paving and construction of roads, and so paving roads was really important because it would allow essentially water and waste to kind of like. Flow and drain into sort of the canal system and the sewer system. So having a paved road was actually a very good thing in terms of public health.

The thing is that obviously they had to be constructed at the correct sort of incline and also have, you know, the correct paving for that sort of to function. So road was in black. The next category was waste disposal prohibition, and I think that probably is pretty. Self-explanatory. So that’s an orange.

And so that was prohibiting the disposal of waste in particular areas. And so you can see that they have basically an orange block right in the city center. That was where the civic buildings that I was talking about in the city center and then also on the left, which is near one of the main monasteries of the city, and was also right on the border of one of the, the canals. In blue, I have the construction and the maintenance of sort of the canal and sewer system. That’s where they were talking about specifically that these canals and, and sewers needed to be drained properly. They needed to be maintained or possibly even the construction of new ones if they, if they didn’t have them there.

And then I also have water regulation, which is slightly different than than canal and sewers. This has to do specifically with the flow of water and managing the movement of water. Then the last one I had was zoning. And so that related to specific prohibitions of artisans and artisanal activities. And so as you can see, most of the regulations are kind of in the southern part of the city and as well as the eastern part of the city.

And in particular in the east, you have this concentration of blue and black regulations, so regulations relating to the infrastructure, to the roads. And to the, the construction of canals and sewers. And the interesting thing about that concentration there is one, there were a lot of artisans that lived there who used water for their activities.

And the other thing that was interesting, I’m gonna move to a different map now, is that if you take a look at sort of the movement of water, right? So what you’re seeing in this map, you’re seeing the canals, the major canals in blue, and then in lighter blue you’re seeing the flow of surface water. And so I’ve circled this in this black circle area, and you can see a bunch of water would be kind of flowing naturally because of the topography water flows from south to to north, and so you can see that a bunch of water is kind of collecting in that area. So a bunch of streams are kind of coming together. You can see that in that area that was circled. If we take a look at where my regulations are, that that is the same area where we have a lot of regulations relating to a, the construction of sewer and the maintenance of sewers and canals and the paving of roads, which again, would’ve allowed the flow of water and, you know, the flow of liquid, let’s say liquid waste into the system. So I thought that was really fascinating and that’s something that I wouldn’t have been able to see had I not mapped these regulations and had I not also looked at the, the flow of, of surface water.

Smiti: So thank you for sharing that map and how you got to your insights. I’m curious, how has working with maps changed the way you think about medieval cities and maybe even modern ones too?

Taylor: I think the traditional view of medieval cities is they’re very dirty. I mean, some of this depends on what your definition of dirty is, right? But I think that it would’ve varied across the city, just like any other city, what your experience and what your life would’ve been like, and what kind of health risks you would’ve been exposed to, or what was problematic.

It would’ve been heavily dependent where you lived. It would’ve been dependent on your age. It would’ve been dependent on your class, on what kind of, you know, activities or profession you were involved in. So I think that’s something that you really see when you, when you map this information and you understand that there were would’ve been certain areas that would’ve had more problems and certain areas that would’ve had less problems. Especially from a public health perspective.

Smiti: Thank you for that. What do you hope listeners stay curious about after hearing how maps can bring the past to life?

Taylor: Yeah, well, I hope that listeners are curious about the idea of medieval public health because they devoted a lot of time and energy for it.

And then not just in Bologna, but certainly in other cities as well. And this is, again, something. That you can see when you map sort of specific activities and specific public health concerns and the enforcement of these concerns. I mean, to be honest, there were more things that I could have mapped and I had to sort of be selective because there was almost too much information, which is a good thing, of course, as a researcher, but I hope that the listener is curious about.

Learning more about medieval life and sort of maybe pushing back about the idea that it was very dirty and dark, and there was also just kind of one experience of medieval life. There was, as we have today, there would’ve been many experiences, and so I hope that they’re interested in digging a little bit more into that.

Smiti: One of my biggest takeaways from this conversation is that by looking at the past from a different perspective, in this case, geospatial. It can reveal different insights and patterns that we might not have noticed before. If you’d like to learn more about Taylor’s work, you can find her on her academia.edu page.

We’ve linked her profile in the show notes along with a full transcript of this episode. Taylor also co-produced video on my YouTube channel all around how people in the past managed waste across times and geographies. So if you’re curious about that, that’s linked below as well. And if you’d like to dig even deeper.

Taylor offers a walkthrough of a free mapping resource that she’s created that you can access online that allows you to explore medieval cities and public health in the past.

That’s available as part of our Patreon bonus content. Our Patreon is free to join and gives you access to all of our bonus content. Now, if you’re able to support the podcast monetarily, we’d of course appreciate that too.

Thanks so much for listening and cultivating your curiosity with us. We’ll see you soon.

Credits

Taylor Zaneri: Guest

Noor Hanania: Theme Music Creator

Laura Riveiro: Podcast Cover Art Creator

Smiti Nathan: Host, Video Editor

Patreon Supporters

Thank you to our paid Patreon members for supporting the creation of this episode:

Nancy Fulton, James D., Giancarlo Annese, Thomas Martin, Stuart A. Griffin, Tagg, Ann Brookens

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