Dr. Smiti Nathan

Transcript

Smiti: Welcome to Curiosity Meets the Past, a podcast for curious minds who love learning about the past. My name is Dr. Smiti Nathan, and I’m an archaeologist and your host.

In this episode, I’m speaking with Egyptologist, Dr. Lingxin Zhang, who’s an assistant professor in the Department of Classics at Georgetown University.

I first met Lingxin when I was a postdoc. What struck me about her work is that she surfaces aspects of the past that are understudied, but also somehow feel quite familiar to how some of us experience the present. In this episode, she shares some of her work exploring two astrological handbooks for women from the Greco-Roman period in Egypt, specifically surrounding the Zodiac.

Now when we’re talking about Zodiac here, we’re mainly speaking about a system that is now known as Hellenistic astrology. This is the system that assigns me as a Taurus and my kids as an Aries and Leo. Well, it’s not the only Zodiac system out there, and we do talk about this in the episode. It’s definitely a known one, and I learned so much about it that I didn’t know before.

There was so much in this conversation that surprised me, including a story about a woman who lived about 1600 years ago, and her reaction to predictions about her life that definitely deviated from the norm. Lingxin starts us off with why she decided to study these astrological handbooks for women in the first place.

Lingxin Zhang: When I was doing my PhD studies, there was this unpublished papyri. It’s on astrology, but specifically an astrological handbook for women that’s unpublished in the Carlsburg collection. It’s very, very broken, right? So my advisor showed me all these fragments, 20 in total, and he asked me, do you want to do this for your dissertation?

And I thought I can work with that, which is, you know, naive and very brave. In hindsight, you know, I was a PhD student and I just jumped at the opportunity. So that’s how I started. I specialize in demotic studies. So demotic is this stage of ancient Egyptian language. It’s a cursive script, um, primarily found on papyri, but there are also demotic used on like stela.

And other like more monumental surfaces. So demotic is used between approximately fifth century BCE to fourth century ce. The bulk of my studies in the text state to like second century, BCE, to second century ce. So that’s what I do. I’m interested in divination omens, and in this book that I’ve been working on for years, I would just say that the identified number of fragments has doubled since I started.

This is because I have me and my colleague, we have been systematically going through the archive and identifying small fragments that has the same handwriting. Um. The most challenging part has been trying to piece these fragments together and to reconstruct the manual. So think of like working with a puzzle, but you don’t have all the pieces, nor do you have the reference picture.

Sure. So I’m very grateful that my colleague, who is a Greek papyrologist, so she works with the rectal, the front side of the papyri, which has, uh, Greek documentary texts, and I work on the versal, which is the astrological text. So we often go back and forth and verify our drawings.

Smiti: So just to clarify, is it common for a text to have one script on one side and another script on the other side?

And would it be a one for one translation?

Lingxin Zhang: Whoa. It’s relatively common in the archive, in the temple deposit that I work with to have certain texts inscribed on both sides. Now, usually the front side, the first side, the rec- rectal is in Greek because these papyri were reused Greek documents. So think of it as you go to office and you print some documents, like single-sided, and the backside is still available for inscription, right?

So what the priest did is they collected all these printed documents with their backside blank. They collected them and wrote these astrological treatises on the back of these Greek documents. And no, there is no relation between the content of the text on the rectal and the versal. The rectal is usually documentary, so we have

like land tenure transaction records, contracts. I think a taxation list in several cases, and on the back it’s temple literature. So what’s interesting is that these astrological handbooks is usually written on recycled material, but the more prestigious ritual handbooks are written on fresh papyri. So you can clearly see what topics and what materials, what content is given priority even within this scriptorium.

Smiti: Wow, that’s absolutely fascinating. And I definitely wanna talk more about the handbook itself. But first I’d love to orient everyone listening. So could you give us an overview of Roman Egyptian astrology, like where it came from and how it took shape?

Lingxin Zhang: Astrology is a loaded word. So we have this tendency to separate astrology from astronomy.

Astrology sometimes is the, you know, more divinatory practices, like the daily horoscopes that’s in the realm of astrology. Whereas when we speak of astronomy in colloquial English, we are referring to like exact science, right? So something more scientific, NASA. Um, but in ancient societies, such a dichotomy didn’t really exist.

And I’d say that this dichotomy is a modern construct that got born out of scholars who, who authored these big manuscripts on like history of ancient science in the 1960s. Okay, so to answer your question, if you think about astrology or ancient astro sciences, there are a couple of centers. And they were separate, initially.

So one certain center is in Mesopotamia and Egypt was in another center. They each have their own tradition. For example, Zodiac originated from Mesopotamia and in Egypt. Very early on, there is an emphasis on observing the rising, the culmination. So when a star reaches the zenith, so the process, the meridian of the celestial heaven and celestial sphere, and then the setting of the star, so the location of the star, which has been argued that this observational habit or tradition served as the basis for

the importance of ascendant in today’s astrology, okay? Be that as May, so the seminal event for the ancient world and ancient astro science is actually the conquest of Alexander the Great. Uh, so people did move around, but after Alexander’s conquest and the subsequent Hellistic era, there is an increase in the coming and going of people, the in exchange between Mesopotamia in Egypt.

So the Zodiac, the Babylonian, Mesopotamian, Zodiac was introduced to Egypt. And so the Zodiac got further divided into 36 divisions. So 12 Zodiac signs each further divided into three sections. And these sections are each assigned with one Decanal stars. So this, this, Decanal Stars, they are indigenous Egyptian system of classifying the celestial sphere, right?

So taken together and, and then there are new ways of making divination. These practices were primarily known in demotic manuscripts, like the ones that I’ve been working on, and Greek manuscript that got transcribed in medieval times and survived in Greek and Arabic in medieval era and Renaissance.

Finally to us. So if we think of personal astrology, like the Daily horoscope, this is a product actually of the Hellenistic in the Roman era or when we think of like, uh, Katarche. So it’s a form of astrology when you cast a definition trying to figure out what is the best time to do something. That also comes from the Hellenistic era.

Yeah.

Smiti: Wow, that’s absolutely fascinating. And I didn’t realize that the Zodiac had these hellenistic, Mesopotamian, Babylonian, and now Egyptian, to my knowledge, connections. And I’m curious, how does the Zodiac that you are talking about and referencing relate to other Zodiac traditions? Like for example, when I think of Zodiac, I’m also thinking of Chinese astrology.

And then my personal background growing up there was a lot of Vedic astrology from the Indian tradition. So how does this zodiac, that you’re talking about, connect those other zodiacs?

Lingxin Zhang: Yeah, so from Vedic tradition that Zodiac comes from Greek, Roman world. So it’s brought to India, but then, uh. This is the thing really, like humans, when we borrow ideas, we never reproduce it.

Exactly. We always add our own spin to it. Right. So we, we recreate some of the problems and then we add our own baggage or flavors to it. Thinking about, you know, all the mummy movies actually. So going back to astrology, that’s exactly what happened as well when Greco Roman Zodiac arrived in India. Um. The astrologers astronomers there borrowed the system of the Zodiac, which contains the 30 60 decanal stars.

That’s the sign that we knew that it came from Greco Roman, Mediterranean world. But then the practice of making predictions on what grounds are you making certain assertions is completely different from the practice recorded in like Egypt or earlier Mesopotamian sources. So it’s still very difficult to speak of a direct line of transmission because the composite nature of our texts and just how

disparate the, the practices have been, but we can say with reasonable confidence that at least the Zodiac system reached as far as India, and it reached China as well, approximately in the eighth century CE and from China to Japan’s. There are some scholars who argue that the Chinese Zodiac may be inspired and connected to the Babylonian Zodiac.

I personally have not. Looked too much into this issue to give people my opinion, but I will say that there’s certainly Zodiac in decanal depictions and Buddhist Mandala that’s connected to the same system as seen in the Greco Roman Mediterranean tradition.

Smiti: Got it. Thank you for that overview and those connections.

And let’s go back to Egypt for a little bit. And I’m wondering if I was living in Roman Egypt. Let’s say in the second Century CE. So I’m right in that middle time period of the First to the Third Century CE. How does astrology show up In my daily life?

Lingxin Zhang: I have to. Add a caveat before answering this question.

So everything I say next is very, is highly speculative because we have so little evidence. It starts with, it depends. So if you live in a village, if you live in the province, then it’s most likely that the Center for Astrological practice or divination is your local temple. We say this because most of the treatises on astrology were found in temple archives, but this could also be a bias, right?

In addition to texts, we also have these zodiac circle found in on the roof of Temple of Khnum at Elephantine, which could indicate that some sort astrologer or maybe a priest were helping people casting their nativity. On the temple roof, and that may be a location where consultations took place. Now, there are also amateur astrologers who are like, you know, enthusiasts of astrology and who are not necessarily affiliated with the temple, but they just wanted to learn, right?

So evidence for this community came primarily from the third century ce, so slightly later than. The, the treatises that I’m working on, and the most important piece of evidence came from this little village called Kellis. It’s in the Western oasis. What we found that’s very interesting were these wooden tablets of horoscopes in people’s houses, and what’s what’s even more interesting is that there is.

Almost exact a copy that’s exactly the same in written on the same medium found in a little house in the annex of the temple. But by third century ce, the temple has been a completely abandoned, um, so it’s speculated that some priests may have moved in to this little house, next to an abandoned temple and because there is no more temple operating and the priest made a living by teaching the villagers or middle class people in the village astrology or magic or divination, right?

So that’s, that’s one of the theories or interpretation put forth to explain what’s going on. Now, if we look at. What types of questions are asked? There are all sorts. Some people tend to say that when it comes to women, they ask how many children this woman can give birth? Is she fertile? Or something like that.

And some people interpret that as the questions are designed to judge if a woman could be a good bride. Uh, but if you look at the manuscripts, the treatises that I work on, actually, the kinds of predictions given is much more diverse than just fertility and childbirth. There are predictions about this woman going to debt.

Yes. And it also concerns her health, whether she will be sick. The cause of her death, the year, how old she was when she dies. Right. All sorts of things. So it’s all really all encompassing.

Smiti: Wow. That is a lot. And I’m glad that diversity is coming through. And just as a plant person, I’m so happy when I hear that there’s awesome wood preservation in certain places.

I know Egypt has a lot of good wood preservation in comparison to other parts of the world. That leads me really well to the next question, which circles back to what you were talking about before regarding astrological handbooks. So people clearly were writing certain things down. So could you give us an overview of what exactly is an astrological handbook and how it’s been used in the past?

Lingxin Zhang: Hmm. Okay. So when it comes to these handbooks or treatises. These are usually what I’m working on. These are demonic treatises, so these have, most of these treatises have an archeological context and they were. The specific collection that I work with is from the so-called temple deposit at Tebtunis. Tebtunis is this little village that’s in the Faiyum, uh, Faiyum oasis in Egypt.

Okay. So the papyri were found primarily into, uh, semi underground cellars, and it speculated that these papyri were brought to be stored in the cellar when the temple. Closed in the third century ce. And, but in fact, if you, so currently there are people doing archival research trying to reconstruct the entire excavation record for all this papyri.

And what they found was the primary cache were found in the sellers, but the entire site was littered with papyri fragment. Yeah.

Smiti: Wow.

Lingxin Zhang: And for example, my. Treatise. There are fragments found in the primary deposit, but there are also just like loose fragments laying around. Right? So, so that’s my, that’s the situation with my text.

Now, this treatise, when reconstructed, it probably has 10 plus columns and it goes through each zodiac sign with its predictions systematically. So the manual for women. Starts with the sign of Libra, and it’s very similar to what should expect in a modern astrological handbook. So it goes through, if this woman is born is a Libra, then this, this, this will happen, right?

And then it goes through all those zodiac signs with its corresponding deens. Now, how could a treatise like this be used? I have to admit that there are still discussion on whether these handbooks were used, right? So early scholarships say that these treatises could just be completely theoretical. They are more like thought experiments.

They are theoretical and they’re not intended to be used. I, myself, um, inclined to think otherwise because we do have. A lot of personal horoscopes, so little ostraca sherds with people’s date and time of birth, and sometimes with the position, the relative position. Mm-hmm. Of all the major planets, the sun in the moon.

So by the relative position, I mean the moon is in, for example, Taurus and how many degrees, minutes, sometimes even like with that. Exact tube. Okay. So we have a lot of horoscopes, which for me indicates that people were making astrological consultations. We also have tables, astronomical tables or almanac.

They’re either on papyri or like in one case we have a little small handbook made of wood, and it’s. Exactly the size of a pocketbook that an astrologer can put in their pocket and carry it around to consult. Um, so what, what’s on these tables? They record the positions of all the major planets for a given length of time.

So for example, a typical table would look like in 2025, uh, on. January 30th, Venus is in this position and Saturn is in this position. Now, what these tables enable the astronomers to do is that they can look at a person’s horoscope. Say I was born on January 30th, 1990, so they can consult the table and figure out the relative position of all my.

Planets and then they can use the astrological treatises to give me a prediction. So this is how I speculate. All these materials come together, but I have to admit that actually the tables, the personal horoscopes and the treatises that I talked about do usually come from very different archeological contexts and.

The examples that I gave above should not be taken as my belief that these materials specifically were used together like by one person at the same time.

Smiti: No, I completely get where you’re coming from and you know, as you mentioned, the archeological record and the textural record is fragmentary, so I really appreciate sharing your hypotheses with us, but also sharing the level of uncertainty and nuance that could go in it.

It does seem that this research, um, is full of surprises. You mentioned earlier that your corpus size has doubled since you started working on it because of the fragments that keep coming up. I was wondering, has there been anything else that’s surprised you as you’ve been working on this material?

Lingxin Zhang: Yeah, the new fragments, it’s a, i, I tell my collaborator it’s a blessing and a curse, right?

Every time a new fragment is identified, then we have to reconsider all our reconstructions and sometimes completely renumber everything. So it’s, it’s exciting whenever I make a drawing, but it’s also extremely a curse at the same time. So for me personally, when I was doing the research. On this topic, like women in astrology and antiquity, the one example that gave me a delightful surprise is the case with Sosipetra.

Now she is not necessarily in Egyptian, she lived in the fourth century ce. So she is from the Roman world and she was born in Ephesus, but she lived in Pergammon. So in like Turkey and today’s Greece, um, she is this neo platonist philosopher. She’s very cool. Why do I say so? Because in her biography, which is, you know, of course, skewed to fit.

The author’s agenda, I’ll fully admit that. But she’s portrayed as this philosopher who is very skilled in divination. And she also probably was very, uh, skilled in astrology as well. Right. So there are some examples given where when she married her husband, she knew exactly when he was gonna die, and she also knew how many children she was gonna have right now.

This part, I have to pause because these are the exact predictions that you defined in my manuscript, in the astrological treatises for women. And the belief is when a unfavorable prediction is given, the woman or the woman’s family will do everything they could to kind of counter the negative outcome, the predicted outcome, and.

Surprisingly, Sosipetra did not do anything to stop to, to prevent the death of her husband. Of course, this is in line with the Neoplatanist philosophy because she is a philosopher and she is in tune with the divine energy, and she would not resort to magic to kind of disobey the divine will, right?

That’s the agenda there. But it was just very surprising and refreshing to see the other side that’s counter to what Egyptologists or like Papyrologists have argued that people would do and act in those situ. So she just fully accepted that her husband’s gonna die before her, and some of her children will be very successful, but some will suck.

And she just like fully accepted that and didn’t, didn’t do anything to intervene, although she’s like the semi divine being right, or maybe she’s semi divine proof. Precisely because she didn’t intervene at all. So that was, that was one of my favorite accounts when it comes to women in astrology antiquity.

Smiti: That’s hilarious. And quite a legacy, I will say. So I am glad you are, uh, I guess spotlighting her work or I guess lack of work in certain areas. So I’m wondering, did Roman Egyptian astrology in general have a legacy beyond Egypt?

Lingxin Zhang: Hmm. Of course, I mean, we still are obsessed with astrology today. I, I guess it’s a very effective coping mechanism, right, for all for humans when we’re faced with uncertainty every day.

So I think. I can give you a more academic answer, but, but this is my, this is the truth.

Smiti: Totally fair. So as we wrap up today, what do you hope people take away from our conversation about the Zodiac and Roman Egyptian astrology,

Lingxin Zhang: if I may get a little philosophical right. So I, I think. Astrology sometimes get a very bad reputation for being pseudoscience and so does magic or divination.

But I guess the way I view them is that these are evidence of humans in our ancestors trying to make sense. And try to create meaning in a world that’s kind of unpredictable and, and you can view it from different angles. I guess you can see these construct in these system, these elaborate and sometimes self contradictory system as a construct, as pseudoscience, as inaccurate.

Or you can just appreciate how much effort went in to like trying to create meaning, and in a sense that I think that’s the beauty of humanity is that we are always in this struggle to create meaning. By being in the struggle and participating in the struggle. I think the product of it, sometimes, even if it’s like inaccurate or unscientific, the product in itself is like meaningful.

Smiti: One of my biggest takeaways from this conversation is that the Zodiac that we talked about today represents the complexities, nuances, and humanness of both people in the past and present. If you’d like to follow Lingxin’s work, she created a dedicated Instagram highlighting work on ancient Egypt that is coming out of Georgetown.

You’ll find that link in the show notes along with the link to a full transcript of this episode. And if you’re curious to dig deeper and learn Lingxin’s take on the ancient Egyptian tampon debate. She shares that and more in a Patreon exclusive video. Our Patreon is free to join and gives you access to all of our bonus content.

If you’d like to support the podcast monetarily, we’d of course appreciate that too. Thanks so much for listening and cultivating your curiosity with us. We’ll see you soon.

Credits

Lingxin Zhang: Guest

Noor Hanania: Theme Music Creator

Laura Riveiro: Podcast Cover Art Creator

Brooke Norton: Production Support

Smiti Nathan: Host, Video Editor

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