Expanding Our View of the Ancient World

Transcript

Smiti: Welcome to Curiosity Meets the Past, a podcast for curious minds who love learning about the past. My name is Dr. Smiti Nathan, and I’m an archaeologist and your host.

In this episode, I’m speaking with Raven Todd DaSilva. She’s an archaeologist and science communicator who people might know from her YouTube channel: Dig it with Raven. She’s also the author of a new book called The Other Ancient Civilisations, which is at the heart of our conversation today.

Now, even if you haven’t read Raven’s book yet, don’t worry. You won’t need it in order to follow along and we don’t spoil it.

To give you a bit of background, her book, spotlights civilizations that are often overlooked.

She blends accessible writing and research, but also creativity. For example, each chapter opens with a fictionalized vignette, which is essentially a short narrative grounded in historical details from Raven’s research.

Now, if that feels different from how we usually engage with ancient history, that’s because it is.

And in this episode, we explore how rethinking the stories we center and how we tell them can change how we connect with the ancient world.

Raven starts us off by sharing what led her to tell these stories in a way that differs from how we usually learn about ancient history.

Raven: I wanted to make it very approachable, accessible. Chunky as well. Like almost, not, not, not quite microlearning. But making it in a way that like everything is separated in ways that you can digest it, and absorb it, learn it, relate to it even, and then bring in that archaeology. A lot of the time it’s just, here’s the facts and everything that we know. It’s, again, that is changing now, which is great.

But where the archaeological, actual like discussions, kind of come out and the theories, everything’s very matter of factly, and then I wanted to be like, guys, we actually don’t know. It could be this, it could be that. It’s just gonna be fun and we’re gonna have a, you know, an exploration together.

And that was sort of my main kind of push towards it and to sort of give people the opportunity to have like just jumping off points. Something to dive deeper in. So I wanted to make sure there was a really big, you know, beefy bibliography. And have little, just interspersed little sentences that make you think, or make you go, what’s that? And make you want to go further.

I don’t want you to just take my book as gospel. I want people to, like, go in and do their own research themselves and be interested in learning further. That was probably to my detriment for the amount of reading I had to do in order to do that, but. That is for me, personally, from my own experience, how I always learned the best, how I went down so many of my own rabbit holes, and how I ended up even getting to specialize in what I specialize in because it was one sentence in one little paragraph of a chapter of a book that I went, what’s that?

And now I’m deep and I want to just inspire people to just keep going deeper.

Smiti: That’s amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. And as you mentioned, you had to do a lot of research, so how did you narrow down which ancient civilizations to ultimately feature in this book?

Raven: My initial list was 50 or something crazy and I wanted to narrow it down to 30. I ended up narrowing it down to 20 because it was gonna just be even more crazier. But, I wanted to highlight as much of the globe as possible. So that was one of the major things, of the book, and the driving force for how I was choosing everything was to make sure that it was spread out as much as possible. But also, chronologically. And trying to get something, you know, from as far back as possible. I wanted to try and be all encompassing and that’s very difficult.

And there was a lot of mapping. I was using maps and like putting pin points and trying to plan it all out. So it looked like it was, you know, properly spread out. It was all just quite a bit of a blur. But then narrowing it down was quite fun to kind of go, okay, well we have South America where we’re going next. Okay, we’re gonna go over to Asia. Or, we don’t have Oceania yet. Okay. And like being able to also then see the gaps in my own knowledge and the gaps in my, the current list that I was having. And maybe go and look even further. So that’s how I sort of went about it, is I wanted to make sure that I could, like, look at a map and have at least one chapter from every continent.

Smiti: Gotcha. Thank you for sharing that. And I’m curious, in your opinion, why do you think certain civilizations become more dominant in popular memory than others? So why do some become more overlooked?

Raven: I really think one of the major aspects is, of course, preservation bias. When people are looking at archaeology, especially the archaeological record, and you’re not specializing, or you’re not studying it professionally, you wanna look for the stuff that we have a lot of. Because that’s what a lot of museums want. And that’s where you go to the museum, you see the big stone monuments from Egypt. You know, I live in London, so you’ve got the Rosetta Stone, like front and center when you walk in. And there’s a huge hallway of just stone monuments. And the same thing with Mesopotamia. And the same thing with ancient Greece with all the marble statues. But you know, most people, if you say, I have a lot of this really cool pottery, it’s not gonna, you know, attract thousands and thousands of people. King Tut’s tomb full of gold and perfectly preserved, you know, human remains, of course, you’re gonna get people excited. And you get the new cycle going and everyone loves that kind of story.

And so those always sort of take front and center even with, like, the Inca and the Aztecs, they have a lot more of these monuments versus a culture for example, the Lapita from Oceania. It’s all very organic stuff. You don’t really have these things that you can just go and physically look at. And people who don’t actively have that access to understanding what it is. You know, you’re gonna look at it and go, well, that’s kind of boring. Or, all I see are trees, or all, you know, oh, a post hole. How, how glorious is a post hole?

And without that context, people can’t appreciate it as much. So that’s the big thing is, you know, the preservation bias. And then how then the media takes that, and how funding works with that as well. Because people do want to find more shiny things. Antiquities dealers, especially in the last, you know, 150 years, they want those prestige items that actually are showy, and they can brag about. Or that people get drawn into a little bit more because they’re mysterious, or they have more written records and so then you can actually know more about them from their words. This is sort of how a lot of things get swept under the rug or just the spotlight doesn’t shine on them because we haven’t given them the light of day because they’re not as inherently valuable as others in our late stage capitalist society.

Smiti: Gotcha. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts on that. And I was curious, going back to your research, as you were researching various civilizations, were there common themes that you noticed that surprised you?

Raven: It’s a thing that you see throughout the entire world throughout all of history that doesn’t get talked about enough. Is how connected we all were with each other, with different groups and how far those connections were and the amount of knowledge sharing and goods that we were able to to spread and disperse around and trading and you know, communication, and things is obviously how we became who we are today. And it doesn’t really get talked about, I would say, enough within the context of, like, all of civilization, in all of human history. Because we usually tend to hone in on one specific civilization or culture. And, you know, there are usually the rivals, or the main trading partners, but you don’t really get to see that everything was interconnected and more, way more interconnected than you could ever think. And the deeper you go, the more you realize that everything is part of that web. And it’s amazing.

Smiti: Yeah, I noticed that as I was reading your book as well. I really loved how you mentioned, okay, this civilization was talking to this civilization and for how long. And even though I knew some of it, there were things that I didn’t know and that surprised me, which was really cool to see. So I loved how you carried that throughout the book.

And speaking of surprises, what was the most surprising thing that you learned while writing this book?

Raven: That’s a really good question because there were so many fun facts and like weird things that I never expected to learn, within every chapter really. I even, like, the ones that I thought, oh, I know them, that’ll be an easy one. And then you start going into it and you’re like, oh, crap, that’s, that’s actually really cool.

One of the best things that I sort of took away was the Lapita. Being able to learn about just how, how brave people were. And just maybe, maybe brave to some, stupid to others, being like, oh, I don’t see an island anywhere, you know, from all around me from the shore, but I’m just gonna get on a little canoe and just see what happens. And just go out there and, like, make a new settlement. But still somehow figure out how to traverse the seas and the oceans. And it’s just the human ingenuity, for me, was amazing with the Lapita and how far they actually got, which was insane. You know, all the way from the Bismarcks to Vanuatu and the Solomon Islands, and Fiji, and Tonga, and being able to get that far just on wooden canoes. I wouldn’t be able to get that far with GPS, and a motorboat. I couldn’t do it.

And another really cool thing was, I just loved learning more about the Moche Sex Pots. When you first see them, you’re like, aha, these are funny and great and, you know, enjoyable for everyone to just sort of talk about and share pictures of. But then when you go further into what their meaning was, and how they were created, and how there was actually just way more than just the sex pots, and like their portraiture on their pottery, and the ritual uses that they were, you know, made for. That was always quite great.

Same goes for the Marajoara in Brazil, modern day Brazil, and just how they still, they chose to just live on these mounds and just kind of canoe around mound to mound during the height, the flood season. And just have a great time living on this island that no one ever thought was possible to have any sort of complex life or society. And they just, you know, beat the odds. It was amazing.

Smiti: Thanks for sharing those moments. And honestly, every one of the civilizations you mentioned right now, I wasn’t as familiar with at all. So it was really great to learn more about them.

And one of the things that honestly helped my learning and really bring me into your book was the intros to each chapter, which I found to be really special because you give us these fictionalized vignettes. And some of them are quite emotional. I remember reading the one about the Lapita and just, you know, people preparing to leave and that’s such a human experience.

So anyway, I was wondering how did you come up with that approach to blend fiction and history?

Raven: That’s so sweet. I’m so glad you liked them. They were one of my favorite things to write, I think they were. My favorite part of writing the book was just having fun with that and putting myself into those scenarios. I wanted to do that because I always find that it kind of just brings you into that perspective and that point of view.

And gives you a great foundation for starting a new chapter. And if you’re gonna be reading the book sequentially, or you choose your own adventure or something, you know, you’re finishing off on a lot of facts about one culture or civilization in one part of the world. And then suddenly it’s like, oh, okay, we did North America, now we’re gonna flip immediately to India. You know, you can’t get that shift, or you don’t wanna just go from one to the other and you get everything mixed up.

I thought it was a great way to break it up, get you into a new setting, and I think then it brings you into their lives, into their shoes, and it makes you appreciate it a little bit more. And then when you’re reading it, you can identify with a lot more that’s going on and you can kind of work on your own interpretations.

Smiti: Great. Thank you for that. And I’m curious, was there a particular vignette that was particularly challenging or rewarding to write?

Raven: So the Lapita one was very, just emotional to write. And I’m glad that you were able, you felt that, I’m glad that that was conveyed. Because you know, I’ve personally, I’ve moved across many an ocean, multiple countries. And, you know, having that feeling, it was quite cathartic to write that one.

One of the most difficult ones anyways was the Minoan bull jumping scene because it’s so famous and so well done, like on, in the, in the fresco. And so everyone knows it and you have to sort of go, okay, well, like someone’s gonna read this and go, that’s not how it would’ve worked. And I read so many descriptions about how they could be, you know, interpretations on how you could do it and what it was. And I don’t do sports. I’m not a sporty person. And so trying to be like, okay, yeah, the crowd, they’re cheering and trying to have to put myself in those situations was difficult. But it was quite fun to just, like, I, at the end, I felt the rush. I was like, oh my gosh, like jumping over a bull. That would be insane.

There was like another sporting one for Cahokia, for the Mississippians, but they were throwing the chunky stone. and some came quite easily, but some were quite difficult where you’re racking your brain, like, what, what, what is the story? What is the thing that I want to talk about the most?

The Thule in Northern Canada. I think I racked my brain for a really long time, just like, what, what do I want to do? Because there’s so much that they went through. I ended up really loving that one because it was so simple by the end of it. Just someone going out and getting some meat to cook, someone sleeping in the house, and they don’t wanna wake ’em up. And you just, it’s that regular life and having that very domestic moment that really brings you in again. Because not everyone’s a bull leaper. And I really liked writing that one once it came to me, but it was very difficult to put myself in that situation.

Smiti: I totally can get that, and I love that these vignettes capture a bit of everyday life that can feel relatable and then parts that might not feel so relatable but are still part of the human experience.

And I’m curious about your human experience and how writing this book has changed how you personally think about the past.

Raven: It’s definitely taught me to look further and deeper, and to kind of see what is more, let’s say in my backyard. I’m seeing that I am now interacting a lot more with British history and archaeology, living in the UK. Beforehand, I was like, nah, he was there, like, it’s not really my area of specialty.

And then recently I was just in Wales over the weekend and we went to see some puffins on an island and there was like an Iron Age settlement. I was like, that’s so cool and interesting that this little island had this like group of 200 people and I wanted to learn more about it. And I think it really has opened my eyes to seeing, as I call it a lot, the magic and the mundane, and bringing that back into focus for me, which is what archaeology is all about anyways. And so it was really great to just recenter and be in that now.

Smiti: So I love that, especially getting curious about the everyday life someone might be leading or what’s in your backyard.

And I’m curious, what do you hope readers rethink about the ancient world after reading your book or listening to our conversation in preparation to read your book?

Raven: I want people to rethink what they think is interesting and what they think maybe is the most important to the development and the understanding of our human story throughout all of civilization, and how we can interact with the past and keep it a little bit more personal and less separate.

Especially when you’re looking at a lot of the lesser known civilizations and cultures, nothing has, was ever really lost, for example, right? We over sensationalize things. This is, this was undiscovered and this is a lost civilization. It’s not, it really wasn’t. And it just gives other people credit for people who have known about it for hundreds of years or who have appreciated it and you know, lived around it or near it.

And so I want people to walk away thinking, okay, you know, nothing under the sun is new. Like, yes, you have some groundbreaking discoveries, but we can all sort of learn to appreciate and connect a lot more with the past and break down some of that wall, hopefully, that’s dividing us from our ancestors and our previous cultures and how we can connect with it in a much more holistic way.

Smiti: One of my biggest takeaways from this conversation is how intentional Raven is about connection. From writing in an accessible and engaging way for her readers to highlighting how ancient people connected with one another across space and time. Her work really invites us to think about how we relate to the past today.

If you’d like to learn more about Raven’s work, you can check out her YouTube channel: Dig It with Raven, her Substack, and of course her book: The Other Ancient Civilisations.

You’ll find those links in the show notes, as well as a link to a full transcript of this episode.

And if you’re curious to dig a bit deeper and hear Raven answers some rapid fire questions about her book, including which civilization she knew she had to include and which one didn’t quite make the cut, she shares that in more in a Patreon-exclusive video.

Our Patreon is free to join and gives you access to all of our extra content if you’d like to support the podcast monetarily, that’s always appreciated too. Thanks so much for listening and cultivating your curiosity with us.

We’ll see you soon.

Credits

Raven Todd DaSilva: Guest

Noor Hanania: Theme Music Creator

Laura Riveiro: Podcast Cover Art Creator

Smiti Nathan: Host, Video Editor

Patreon Supporters

Thank you to our paid Patreon members for supporting the creation of this episode:

Nancy Fulton, James D., Giancarlo Annese, Thomas Martin, Stuart A. Griffin, Tagg, Ann Brookens, Diana Madden